[Street] NYPD takes both of OWS livestreams

Patricia Downer patricia.downer at gmail.com
Fri Jan 6 15:18:44 EST 2012


Eden (and others?),

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to say that Street is the place to discuss that
proposal and I didn't realize that Ravi was suggesting that this list isn't
the right place. I thought he was saying that GA was not the place to
discuss it.

I did not start (or intend to start) a debate regarding the proposal in
question; I was simply replying to Matthew's email (and several emails in
support of it). The subject line of the email sounded like it might be one
thing (focused on the shutdown of the livestream at OWS), but actually was
more focused on digs against the Anti-Sexual Assault (or whatever its
official name is) proposal and the process the GA has been going through.

I recognize that the proposal is not really a Street issue (although it
does relate to the safety of people at our Street events), but I also could
not let something so negative and dismissive go by without speaking up.
Especially as several people agreed with it.

Similarly, I thought Ravi's reply was relating to the discussion of said
proposal at the GA (which is an appropriate forum for that discussion). If
he was indeed talking about the discussion of this proposal on this email
list (which, you're right, is not a particularly appropriate forum for that
discussion), then I would not have responded that way.

Sorry,

Patricia Downer

On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 2:56 PM, <Eden at akashic.com> wrote:

> Patricia,
>
>
> I think Ravi states he is asking the group what they want and yes you
> outline it ... what do you prose?
>
> Ravi is suggesting to take this issue off the list by creating a
> Distribution list, or an email of individual email that everyone replys all
> to and they can discuss it and ideally come back to the group with a more
> thought out outline.
>
> The other place to have discussion would be:
> Community_forum at lists.occupyboston.org
>
> The street list, to my understanding should be about planning actions.
> And to that end it members should be given the opportunity to get educated
> ... however, if they don't we still want them to plan and enact actions
> therefor, I believe it serves the whole to have working group lists serve
> the working group ... those choices are decided by modified consensus at a
> working group.
>
> And Nicole, I respect you deeply and yes, sexual predation and who is in
> and who is out of occupy and who decides and by what process are VERY
> important ... AND NDAA, the Primary and Greater Boston GA (Jan 7th 3-7pm,
> E5) are all equally important.
>
> It took congress a whole 30 min to abolish any shadow of protection
> keeping us, US citizens from going to Guantanamo and the like (NDAA)... OB
> has got to figure out how to divide these issues and comeback with actions
> that we all participate in ... if a list gets too off topic people just
> delete it, and these important issues get lost as does the participation of
> action focused people.
> IS, eden
>
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: Re: [Street] NYPD takes both of OWS livestreams
> > From: Patricia Downer <patricia.downer at gmail.com>
> > Date: Fri, January 06, 2012 11:50 am
> > To: Ravi Mishra <ravi at occupyboston.org>
> > Cc: street <street at lists.occupyboston.org>
> >
> >
> > Let me preface this by stating that this is not meant to sound combative,
> > but simply trying to clarify and understand.
> >
> > Ravi, you say that *"it seems oppressive to use a space to discuss an
> issue
> > that most people don't want to discuss also seems oppressive"* and *"if a
>
> > majority of the group does not want to discuss it is, quite literally, a
> > minority of the people dictating what the majority [should] do".* I would
>
> > argue that to do the opposite, denying the minority its voice simply
> > because the majority does not wish to discuss it, is even more damaging
> and
> > oppressive. Specifically in the case of typically oppressed minorities
> that
> > are often discriminated against.
> >
> > Following that logic:
> >
> >    - An issue that disproportionally affects PoC shouldn't be discussed
> if
>
> >    the majority doesn't want to?
> >    - An issue that disproportionally affects LGBT folks shouldn't be
>
> >    discussed if the majority doesn't want to?
> >    - An issue that disproportionally affects Jews or Muslims (or any
> other
>
> >    non-Christian religious group) shouldn't be discussed if the majority
> >    doesn't want to?
> >    - Or for that matter...an Occupier shouldn't speak up in a room full
> of
>
> >    1%ers (and their supporters) if the majority doesn't want to?
> >
> > How different would this country be today if people had followed that
> logic?
> >
> > Just because the majority (according to you) doesn't want to talk about
> it,
> > presumably because they don't think it's important enough, does that mean
> > that the minority (according to you) who need something like this to pass
> > to feel safer here should be ignored?
> > Like I said, I'm trying to understand this logic.
> >
> > Patricia Downer
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Ravi Mishra <ravi at occupyboston.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > > This is an interesting place to have this conversation (the street
> list)
> > > but I'd like to dive in, being somewhat curious and comfortable with
> most
> > > everyone on here (I think). given the previous discussion, it seems
> there
> > > is some interest. If anyone wants to take this off list, I'd be happy
> to do
> > > so.
> > >
> > > So I'm sort of stuck in the middle. On one hand, I (as usual :) think
> that
> > > Nicole has a great point and perspective, and I enjoyed the article.
> I've
> > > learned a ton about oppressive structures and am keen on understanding
> how
> > > to rebuild communication without oppression.
> > >
> > > On the other, it seems oppressive to use a space to discuss an issue
> that
> > > most people don't want to discuss also seems oppressive. To put that
> > > tangibly, using GA to talk about Sexual Abuse if a majority of the
> group
> > > does not want to discuss it is, quite literally, a minority of the
> people
> > > dictating what the majority do. This majority has two options - suck
> it up
> > > and stay put, or vote with their feet and leave.
> > >
> > > To go back to the other side, the first option is pretty legitimate.
> The
> > > thinking is that the minority has been oppressed for so long, and the
> least
> > > the majority can do is allow the conversation to go on.
> > >
> > > But I wonder if, practically speaking, this is a good strategy. It
> seems
> > > that, to open someone's eyes, you have to approach them (and have them
> > > approach you) from a stance of love and understanding, and that those
> > > feelings are necessary and conducive to being open to truth.
> > >
> > > Put more simply, people have to *want* to learn, and if you try to
> force
>
> > > them to learn, you probably end up hurting your end goal (by
> antagonizing
> > > them).
> > >
> > > So tl;dr: I have no idea what to think about the proposal, other than
> > > maybe forcing it down people's throats (IF that's what's happening -
> huge
> > > if) might be counterproductive.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ravi
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 5:37 PM, Patricia Downer <
> patricia.downer at gmail.com
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> +1 Nicole
> > >>
> > >> While it is frustrating to have this discussion continue for so many
> > >> days, it is ABSOLUTELY important to the functioning of the movement.
> Not
> > >> every discussion can or should focus on actions. We also need a
> unified
> > >> structure behind those actions. A part of that is making sure that we
> make
> > >> an effort to make people feel safe at events. This proposal is a step
> > >> towards that (it doesn't completely achieve that, but it shouldn't
> have
> > >> to...we just need a step in the right direction).
> > >>
> > >> The discussions have been just as much about breaking down oppressive
> > >> structures and privilege as they have been about the content of the
> > >> proposal itself. The discussion also branched off into lots of other
> > >> important subjects that we have yet to tackle such has how OB will
> provide
> > >> a space for redress of grievances in general. (Which actually wasn't
> really
> > >> the initial intent of the proposal.)
> > >>
> > >> Matthew - I would have loved to hear more about what was in the
> subject
> > >> line of your email without the digs about this proposal. I would be
> curious
> > >> what concerns you have about the NH protests (without digs about said
> > >> proposal). We have actions planned. After yesterday's proposal, we
> now have
> > >> some funds allocated.
> > >>
> > >> To all - Please don't loose respect for this proposal just because of
> > >> your frustrations with the amount of time it is taking to get a
> solution.
> > >> Please don't turn to infighting over the process (especially without
> > >> constructive suggestions of how to improve said process).
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >>
> > >> Patricia Downer
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Nicole Sullivan <
> > >> nicole_sullivan at live.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>  Actions do not get planned at GA's. Quite frankly, if you want this
> > >>> movement to survive- we are going to have spend time doing the
> internal
> > >>> work to dismantle oppressive structures within occupy. This long
> lasting
> > >>> conversation at GA has been one of the most important ones we have
> had.
> > >>> This is good reading on the subject:
> > >>>
> http://inciteblog.wordpress.com/2010/07/15/why-misogynists-make-great-informants-how-gender-violence-on-the-left-enables-state-violence-in-radical-movements/
> .
> > >>> I'm not quite sure why spending GA talking about a proposal that is
> needed
> > >>> means all these other things aren't happening. I know I've been
> personally
> > >>> working on those issues with the working groups I am in.
> > >>>
> > >>> What I am hearing with this thread is that: Gendered violence is a
> > >>> distraction to our greater cause therefore we should not be talking
> about
> > >>> it.  Matthew- you could have sent this news about OWS without the
> dig at
> > >>> the people who care deeply about making Occupy the model to change
> the
> > >>> world. You could have also sent your concerns about those of us
> going to
> > >>> New Hampshire without that as well. Also, just an FYI- my main
> concern
> > >>> about staying with strangers in NH is not lack of food or shelter,
> its
> > >>> staying with strange men with no accountability structures if they
> decide
> > >>> to hurt me.
> > >>>
> > >>> Basically, my patience and tolerance for people sweeping sexual
> violence
> > >>> aside for the "greater cause" is at zero.
> > >>>
> > >>> Nicole
> > >>>
> > >>> > To: matthewk at krawnet.com; street-bounces+juliet.stone2=
> > >>> verizon.net at lists.occupyboston.org; eden at occupyboston.org
> > >>> > From: juliet.stone2 at verizon.net
> > >>> > Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 14:38:19 +0000
> > >>> > CC: street at lists.occupyboston.org
> > >>>
> > >>> > Subject: Re: [Street] NYPD takes both of OWS livestreams
> > >>> >
> > >>> > YES
> > >>> > I was at the GA and was confused as to why OB had become
> misdirected
> > >>> > Horizontal democracy that looses sight of original motivators for
> > >>> action threatens our ability to function
> > >>> > A working group on medical/social personal internal specifics
> should
> > >>> not be focus of GAs! Yes sexual misconduct, predatory behavior etc
> cannot
> > >>> be tolerated as this behavior whether pathological or not needs clear
> > >>> boundries and may need medical and/or exclusionary action by OB to
> insure
> > >>> we have safe spaces
> > >>> > Do we not want our time and energy to focus on
> > >>> > The NH Primary
> > >>> > Affordable housing
> > >>> > Public transportation
> > >>> > Universal Health care
> > >>> > Corporate power impact on Democracy
> > >>> > Quality Education for all
> > >>> > Etc etc.
> > >>> > Coalition building!!
> > >>> > Uniting with global and national and local movements is our
> strength!
> > >>> > Not an internal personal medical disciplinary issue at GAs
> > >>> > We need to keep our eyes on the grape
> > >>> > As Chavez said!
> > >>> > Onward
> > >>> > Julie
> > >>> > Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
> > >>> >
> > >>> > -----Original Message-----
> > >>> > From: Matthew Krawitz <matthewk at krawnet.com>
> > >>> > Sender: street-bounces+juliet.stone2=
> > >>> verizon.net at lists.occupyboston.org
> > >>> > Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 03:50:13
> > >>> > To: Free School University<eden at occupyboston.org>
> > >>> > Cc: <street at lists.occupyboston.org>
> > >>> > Subject: Re: [Street] NYPD takes both of OWS livestreams
> > >>> >
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