[Street] NYPD takes both of OWS livestreams
Patricia Downer
patricia.downer at gmail.com
Fri Jan 6 13:50:45 EST 2012
Let me preface this by stating that this is not meant to sound combative,
but simply trying to clarify and understand.
Ravi, you say that *"it seems oppressive to use a space to discuss an issue
that most people don't want to discuss also seems oppressive"* and *"if a
majority of the group does not want to discuss it is, quite literally, a
minority of the people dictating what the majority [should] do".* I would
argue that to do the opposite, denying the minority its voice simply
because the majority does not wish to discuss it, is even more damaging and
oppressive. Specifically in the case of typically oppressed minorities that
are often discriminated against.
Following that logic:
- An issue that disproportionally affects PoC shouldn't be discussed if
the majority doesn't want to?
- An issue that disproportionally affects LGBT folks shouldn't be
discussed if the majority doesn't want to?
- An issue that disproportionally affects Jews or Muslims (or any other
non-Christian religious group) shouldn't be discussed if the majority
doesn't want to?
- Or for that matter...an Occupier shouldn't speak up in a room full of
1%ers (and their supporters) if the majority doesn't want to?
How different would this country be today if people had followed that logic?
Just because the majority (according to you) doesn't want to talk about it,
presumably because they don't think it's important enough, does that mean
that the minority (according to you) who need something like this to pass
to feel safer here should be ignored?
Like I said, I'm trying to understand this logic.
Patricia Downer
On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Ravi Mishra <ravi at occupyboston.org> wrote:
> This is an interesting place to have this conversation (the street list)
> but I'd like to dive in, being somewhat curious and comfortable with most
> everyone on here (I think). given the previous discussion, it seems there
> is some interest. If anyone wants to take this off list, I'd be happy to do
> so.
>
> So I'm sort of stuck in the middle. On one hand, I (as usual :) think that
> Nicole has a great point and perspective, and I enjoyed the article. I've
> learned a ton about oppressive structures and am keen on understanding how
> to rebuild communication without oppression.
>
> On the other, it seems oppressive to use a space to discuss an issue that
> most people don't want to discuss also seems oppressive. To put that
> tangibly, using GA to talk about Sexual Abuse if a majority of the group
> does not want to discuss it is, quite literally, a minority of the people
> dictating what the majority do. This majority has two options - suck it up
> and stay put, or vote with their feet and leave.
>
> To go back to the other side, the first option is pretty legitimate. The
> thinking is that the minority has been oppressed for so long, and the least
> the majority can do is allow the conversation to go on.
>
> But I wonder if, practically speaking, this is a good strategy. It seems
> that, to open someone's eyes, you have to approach them (and have them
> approach you) from a stance of love and understanding, and that those
> feelings are necessary and conducive to being open to truth.
>
> Put more simply, people have to *want* to learn, and if you try to force
> them to learn, you probably end up hurting your end goal (by antagonizing
> them).
>
> So tl;dr: I have no idea what to think about the proposal, other than
> maybe forcing it down people's throats (IF that's what's happening - huge
> if) might be counterproductive.
>
> --
> Ravi
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 5:37 PM, Patricia Downer <patricia.downer at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> +1 Nicole
>>
>> While it is frustrating to have this discussion continue for so many
>> days, it is ABSOLUTELY important to the functioning of the movement. Not
>> every discussion can or should focus on actions. We also need a unified
>> structure behind those actions. A part of that is making sure that we make
>> an effort to make people feel safe at events. This proposal is a step
>> towards that (it doesn't completely achieve that, but it shouldn't have
>> to...we just need a step in the right direction).
>>
>> The discussions have been just as much about breaking down oppressive
>> structures and privilege as they have been about the content of the
>> proposal itself. The discussion also branched off into lots of other
>> important subjects that we have yet to tackle such has how OB will provide
>> a space for redress of grievances in general. (Which actually wasn't really
>> the initial intent of the proposal.)
>>
>> Matthew - I would have loved to hear more about what was in the subject
>> line of your email without the digs about this proposal. I would be curious
>> what concerns you have about the NH protests (without digs about said
>> proposal). We have actions planned. After yesterday's proposal, we now have
>> some funds allocated.
>>
>> To all - Please don't loose respect for this proposal just because of
>> your frustrations with the amount of time it is taking to get a solution.
>> Please don't turn to infighting over the process (especially without
>> constructive suggestions of how to improve said process).
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Patricia Downer
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Nicole Sullivan <
>> nicole_sullivan at live.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Actions do not get planned at GA's. Quite frankly, if you want this
>>> movement to survive- we are going to have spend time doing the internal
>>> work to dismantle oppressive structures within occupy. This long lasting
>>> conversation at GA has been one of the most important ones we have had.
>>> This is good reading on the subject:
>>> http://inciteblog.wordpress.com/2010/07/15/why-misogynists-make-great-informants-how-gender-violence-on-the-left-enables-state-violence-in-radical-movements/ .
>>> I'm not quite sure why spending GA talking about a proposal that is needed
>>> means all these other things aren't happening. I know I've been personally
>>> working on those issues with the working groups I am in.
>>>
>>> What I am hearing with this thread is that: Gendered violence is a
>>> distraction to our greater cause therefore we should not be talking about
>>> it. Matthew- you could have sent this news about OWS without the dig at
>>> the people who care deeply about making Occupy the model to change the
>>> world. You could have also sent your concerns about those of us going to
>>> New Hampshire without that as well. Also, just an FYI- my main concern
>>> about staying with strangers in NH is not lack of food or shelter, its
>>> staying with strange men with no accountability structures if they decide
>>> to hurt me.
>>>
>>> Basically, my patience and tolerance for people sweeping sexual violence
>>> aside for the "greater cause" is at zero.
>>>
>>> Nicole
>>>
>>> > To: matthewk at krawnet.com; street-bounces+juliet.stone2=
>>> verizon.net at lists.occupyboston.org; eden at occupyboston.org
>>> > From: juliet.stone2 at verizon.net
>>> > Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 14:38:19 +0000
>>> > CC: street at lists.occupyboston.org
>>>
>>> > Subject: Re: [Street] NYPD takes both of OWS livestreams
>>> >
>>> > YES
>>> > I was at the GA and was confused as to why OB had become misdirected
>>> > Horizontal democracy that looses sight of original motivators for
>>> action threatens our ability to function
>>> > A working group on medical/social personal internal specifics should
>>> not be focus of GAs! Yes sexual misconduct, predatory behavior etc cannot
>>> be tolerated as this behavior whether pathological or not needs clear
>>> boundries and may need medical and/or exclusionary action by OB to insure
>>> we have safe spaces
>>> > Do we not want our time and energy to focus on
>>> > The NH Primary
>>> > Affordable housing
>>> > Public transportation
>>> > Universal Health care
>>> > Corporate power impact on Democracy
>>> > Quality Education for all
>>> > Etc etc.
>>> > Coalition building!!
>>> > Uniting with global and national and local movements is our strength!
>>> > Not an internal personal medical disciplinary issue at GAs
>>> > We need to keep our eyes on the grape
>>> > As Chavez said!
>>> > Onward
>>> > Julie
>>> > Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: Matthew Krawitz <matthewk at krawnet.com>
>>> > Sender: street-bounces+juliet.stone2=
>>> verizon.net at lists.occupyboston.org
>>> > Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2012 03:50:13
>>> > To: Free School University<eden at occupyboston.org>
>>> > Cc: <street at lists.occupyboston.org>
>>> > Subject: Re: [Street] NYPD takes both of OWS livestreams
>>> >
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>>
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